We Can’t Heal Alone: Trauma, Relationship, and Collective Healing with Thomas Hübl

Content Warning: This episode includes discussions of our guest’s personal experience of the 2026 war in Israel and Iran. It also references war, abuse, domestic violence, concentration camps, and trauma responses related to 9/11. Please use your discretion when deciding whether or not to listen.

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Preorder Thomas Hübl‘s newest book Attuned

Preorder Laurence Heller’s newest book Healing Shame and Guilt

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Trauma is more broadly and culturally seen, discussed, and understood today than it has ever been. Yet, it’s often still widely understood as something personal—something that belongs to an individual’s experience. What might become available to all of us, though, when we begin to recognize how deeply trauma is shaped—even held—by the relational and collective contexts we live in?

In this episode of The Aliveness Project: Conversations on Connection, host Iris McAlpin Garrett sits down with collective trauma expert and teacher Dr. Thomas Hübl and NARM founder Dr. Laurence Heller to explore the intersection of individual and collective trauma and the role of relationships in how trauma is carried, lived out, and healed.

This episode offers a grounded and wide-ranging conversation on how we are both impacted and supported by our relationships, and what it means to stay connected to ourselves and each other while working with individual and collective trauma. Join us as we explore the role of triggers and protective patterns as entry points for our process, how personal pain is always a part of the larger field we live in, and how spirituality often plays an important role in healing both individual and collective trauma.

🎧 The Aliveness Project: Conversations on Connection is created and produced by the NARM Training Institute.
🎬 Post-production, editing, and audio mixing/mastering by Tim Skipper (IG: @timmyskip).

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About Thomas Hübl:

Thomas Hübl, PhD, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change, integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science. Since the early 2000s, he has led large-scale events and courses on the healing of collective trauma.

He is the author of the new book Attuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World, and Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds. Thomas has served as an advisor and guest faculty for universities and organizations, as a coach for CEOs and organizational leaders, and is currently a visiting scholar at the Wyss Institute at Harvard University.

You can find Thomas Hübl at https://thomashuebl.com or on social media…

IG: @thomashuebl
FB: https://www.facebook.com/Thomas.Huebl.Sangha/
LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomashuebl/
YouTube: @thomashuebl

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About Laurence Heller:

Laurence Heller, PhD, is the creator of the NeuroAffective Relational Model® (NARM®), founder of the NARM Training Institute, international trainer, and co-author of Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image and the Capacity for Relationship, now published in fifteen different languages. Dr. Heller has a PhD in clinical psychology and has conducted NARM trainings and case consultations for thousands of therapists throughout the United States and Europe. He is the co-author of the new book Healing Shame and Guilt, available now wherever books are sold.

You can find Larry and the NARM Training Institute at https://narmtraining.com/, https://drlaurenceheller.com/, or on social media…

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/narm-training-institute
YouTube: @NARMTrainingInstitute
IG:  @narmtraininginstitute
FB: https://www.facebook.com/NARMTraining

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Special Thanks
To the NARM Training Institute team—Lindsey Smith, Olga Piontkowski, Emily Scott, and Tue Kjær—for invaluable production support, and to Tim Skipper for his outstanding post-production, editing, and creative work. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Many modalities try to either try to how do we get out of this trigger and how do we get over it and how do we you know not have it. But I think the only way is like the only way is in. If if trauma is a certain level of disembodiment, if we want to heal ourselves in the world, we need to re-embody ourselves somehow. And in the trigger is a very important information. And of course, maybe at the beginning it needs also some skill building and some first aid when people get really strongly triggered. But eventually the way is how to unlock and be curious and really unearth like what's actually deeper down there that the trigger is a symptom of.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

I'm eager to dive into this with both of you, but before we do, I'd love to introduce you to our listeners. So, first, Tomas Hubel, PhD, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change, integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science. Since the early 2000s, he has led large-scale events and courses on the healing of collective trauma. He is the author of Attuned, Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma and Our World, and Healing Collective Trauma, a process for integrating our intergenerational and cultural wounds. Tomas has served as an advisor and guest faculty for universities and organizations, as a coach for CEOs and organizational leaders, and is currently a visiting scholar at the VES Institute at Harvard University. Thomas, we're honored that you're here.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

And also joining us for another conversation is Dr. Lawrence Heller. Larry is the creator of the NeuroAffective Relational Model and founder of the NARM Training Institute. He has spent decades developing and teaching NARM, which is an approach to working with complex and developmental trauma. Larry is a clinical psychologist, international trainer, and co-author of the foundational book on NARM called Healing Developmental Trauma, which has been translated into multiple languages and is used by clinicians around the world. His work has influenced thousands of therapists across the US and Europe and continues to evolve through ongoing dialogue, collaboration, and clinical inquiry. Larry is the co-author of the upcoming book, Healing, Shame, and Guilt. Larry, welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Nice to be here. Thanks, Laris.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, so let's get started. So, Tomas, you've worked for years at the intersection of individual healing and collective trauma. And I'm really curious how you first began to see trauma not just as a personal affliction, but something that lives in relational and collective fields.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, thank you. First of all, thank you. Thank you for having me. Um did that I think the first time, like or the first times that it came up, because it because it came up more often, I I recognized it as a as a something because it I saw it multiple times. So when when we did our groups, I don't know, 25 years ago, then these groups grew pretty quickly into I don't know, sixty, hundred and more participants. And um and what happened more often than not is that when we were together for two, three or more days, and the relational dimension felt more coherent, we f the group felt safer, we felt more attuned to each other. Then and since these groups happened at the beginning, mainly in the German-speaking part of Europe, like mainly in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, but mainly Austria and Germany, we like this kind of release of collective material started to happen. And it happened like as suddenly 30, 50 people had like emotional releases at the same time. And often it came with the with kind of inner information, images about the World War II, about the Holocaust, about the like the Germany's or Europe's history. And so different people, same process, different people, same process. So, and that's how I started to pay attention to this. And then I began to study this deeper and look at okay, what's actually happening here? What do I learn about this? And then we we did more and more groups that were more specifically geared towards that. And then I learned how to facilitate larger group processes um around collective trauma topics. And eventually, after a few years doing this in Europe, we ex and worked on slavery and racism and uh Native American genocide and colonialism and different different trauma fields in different on different continents. But yeah, the first time was like that this pattern showed up in the groups. And um and I th I thought this was really fascinating. And I knew that this is something that life's calling me to look at deeper. I kind of knew this, uh, that this is not just random or yeah, randomly happening.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

And I'm curious how you two first crossed paths. Sounds like you know a lot of people in common, and how did you connect first?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Well, I think it was partly be some of the teachers or main people that uh Thomas are also have either you know, first started by being students and then ended up being assistants, and one of them uh now is a teacher, that's Tobias. And so we have we and Chris Kirsten Timmer also was very interested in getting us together. So the common several different people kind of uh combining, saying, You guys should really talk to each other because you're you're looking at a lot of the same things from slightly different angles, and it might be interesting. And then you and I, Tomas, we had a very long, as I recall, conversation, very engaged uh and fun conversation together and enlightening too. Uh so that was those were from my perspective, at least some of the initial steps.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yeah, yeah, likewise. I want to uh underline that. And I also really enjoyed our conversation, and I think we did one recording of a podcast somewhere, like we had a second one.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I think we did too.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

So yeah, we felt immediately the resonance because we're so interested in very similar things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Well, you already started speaking to the importance of relationship and collective healing, and obviously the R and Narm stands for relational. So I'm just curious to hear both of you, you you started touching on this already, but the role of relationship and healing, both individual and collective trauma.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Yeah, so I will I'll combine a little bit the lens of trauma healing and the mystical lens, like the spiritual contemplative lens. In a way, we could say if presence is integrated history, then unintegrated history causes effects that seem to be in interference with that presence. Like they cause some kind of symptoms all the time. And and one way to say is present relationship is an invitation to onboard whatever got stuck or frozen or uh unupdatable in the past into this present moment so that it turns to into having a future. Because mystically, like the mystical exploration also looks at the time how it's being viewed in mainstream society is actually not the way we view time in a deeper contemplative tradition. So that presence is the airport that onboards the planes from the past and the planes from the future. So when future is not a later point in time, but the a new development that's emerging in the present moment. So it's being born in the present moment, and the past is being onboarded and expands the perspective of the present moment, of embodied presence, not just presence as awareness, embodied presence. So and that's why a relationship, also the therapeutic relationship, is a key element in allowing different levels of development that need tending or they need a kind of a process work to come into that present experience. And and I feel very often when people, and I'm sure you too do, and uh you too, is that whenever somebody touches some sort of trauma, their capacity to stay related is somehow compromised. And if we don't see this as a dysfunction but a necessary function, and we work with it intelligently, then it can open up back into the relational space and and uh release its whatever content. And that's a very powerful dynamic that I think shows up again and again.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, I'd say we're you know slightly different language, but our point of view is pretty similar. And from my perspective, from an arm perspective, uh what I see regularly is that in relationship is where the deepest kinds of stuckness tends to emerge. And that's where and that's what tends to trigger each other uh in relationship. And if we're talking about intimate relationships now, that when you know these unresolved material naturally starts to emerge when people get closer and more connected, they're either forced to create disconnection or address what it is that is being awakened or stirred up, or you know, we could use a variety of different languaging for that. But uh, and so then we use that because uh, I mean, we use that as material and we grist for the mill for the exploration that we do. And so, you know, it's clear that you know, developmental trauma is a relation. Well, I mean, there are there can be shock trauma elements that are non-relational, but for the biggest part, it it does tend to be real relational in terms of relationship with parents, relationship with culture, relationship with community, all of those things. And you know, I think you and I, Tomas, we we our our our lens or our focus is a little different. You're focusing more on the on uh community and collect the the collective, whereas I focus more on the individual. But it's kind of like that yin-yang sign. We've got elements of both in in each of our models, as I understand our models, you know. And that I always talk about, yeah, the family is often the conduit of all kinds of cultural and uh other and broader community and and collective issues, but they're always families are always embedded in the collective, they're always embedded in a culture. And so you can't, you know, we can address the family issues and it's useful, but we also understand that we're we're not just dealing with that, we're dealing with the collective, we're dealing with the collective historically as well. We're dealing with hundreds and thousands of years of the collective. So uh, and and I like to, when people don't use that as a spiritual bypass, I like to help them see that bigger picture, not as a way of you know, not feeling things or not addressing things, but as a way of understanding that it's not personal. Because of course, for a child, any kind of trauma that we experience as children, by definition, is very personal. And that's the only way we can understand it. And it does help when when we use it to you know go beyond just the individual perspective to a broader perspective to see how much this has just been a part of our cultures, our world, long-standing kinds of themes that we're all dealing with.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah, I love the can I is it okay to respond to this for a moment? Oh yeah, of course. Because because this is this is very lovely. I mean, first of all, thank you for this lovely summary and also the expansion to show that actually trauma, the whole trauma is a whole system in which the individual attachment or whatever trauma is also part of, but it's much bigger than this. And and um and I love this because often in our work when we work on, for example, con large-scale conflict resolution or peace building, we could say, like the misunderstanding I think in culture is that of course now after World War II, when there is seeming peace in Europe, we say, Oh, there is peace. And I would say, not really, because the drumbeats of war continue in family systems, exactly as you said. So and attachment trauma is or uh viol uh domestic violence or sexual abuse in families and so on. These are the drumbeats of war just filtering down, even if at on the surface it seems like there's a crust of peace, the peace down there is not yet integrated. Hence it's subject to like a repetition compulsion. And then we say, Oh, how come that after 50, 80, 100 years we have another cycle of war? But of course, because we don't do the root canal treatment that's needed to really develop sustainable peace. And I think that the work that you're doing is or that we are doing in the bigger field of integration work is actually deeply uh culturally effective and is the deeper peace-building work that is needed to lead towards a more peaceful world and to disarm this uh repetition compulsion. So I love how you connected this to the family. And uh and I think this there is a lovely interdependence or a very important interdependence, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I'm curious what both of you see as being in the way of us sort of collectively doing what you're describing as sort of this root canal work. I mean, aside from it being unpleasant to get a root canal, you know, what it what do you see as being in the way of us doing that?

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Yeah, well for me, there's kind of nothing in the way. Because I I see everything like everything that looks like uh like an obstacle or something that's not happening for me is the process and not like that which blocks the process. So in that sense, if we could say yes, the collective defense mechanisms to suppress the pain of millions of people in concentration camps, that if if that were to come up immediately and fully now, if all of us would release this now, we would go crazy. So that that function is in place, also is in place for a reason, and it also seems like it leads to the fact of indifference, let's get over it, let's not deal with it, why do we need to talk about this over and over again? Let's look at innovation. I mean, all the the the forward trying to forward look uh mechanisms. And um so we can say, okay, why do governments not invest more in building the architecture for collective healing? Why don't we have more citizenship embracing the integration of uh our collective past, cleaning up our collective living room, basically, after there is a lot of mess from the former generations. And yes, that's all true, but the fact that it's not happening is actually the relational skill set that we need or the invites the skill set to see this as the process and turn it into more movement. And I think that's a great that's a great question. So I think um that's part of the relational skill that we developed to presence those mechanisms. And I think it's very similar to individual um drama work.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Well, the one thing that you said that I well, I I relate it to everything that you said, but one thing that really struck me is how similarly we view so-called obstacles. That, and I I'm very explicit in my teaching, make a point to say that's where the most important information is, is in the so-called obstacles. That's, you know, and it's not, you know, there's this idea that people have from movies, and even some therapists have this idea that if you just go back and find out what caused it and feel some feelings maybe, or maybe not, then it's it's all going to be better. And uh we we know it doesn't, it's not that simple. And we're not there to try and bypass the so-called defense mechanisms. I don't use that languaging. I use protective mechanisms and in NARM, but uh most people understand it as defense mechanisms. That uh, you know, that's where the explore.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yeah, this is slightly tangential, but related to what we're talking about because you've both sort of touched on this idea of triggers and you know, things that look like dysfunction maybe being functional. In a lot of therapy and a lot of treatment, people are encouraged to sort of get over their triggers or, you know, like resolve them rather than getting curious about them, getting more intimate with them. How do both of you relate to that?

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah, I think that's uh I think that's true. That's like uh many modalities try to either try to how do we get out of this trigger and how do we get over it, and how do we, you know, not have it. But I think the only way is like the only way is in. If if trauma is a certain level of disembodiment, if we want to heal ourselves in the world, we need to re-embody ourselves somehow. And in the trigger is a very important information. And of course, maybe at the beginning it needs also some skill building and some first aid when people get really strongly triggered. But uh eventually the way is how to unlock and be curious and and really unearth like what's actually deeper down there that the trigger is a symptom of. And I and I somehow have the feeling that here we also look at this very similar, that there is so much important information in there, and actually the ways to explore it is deeper.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Well, the I don't know if we talked about this the last time that you and I talked, Thomas, but the original title of my very first book was Connection, Our Deepest Desire and Greatest Fear. And it relates to just this theme that we're talking about, and that uh for me, these triggers are reflecting areas in of disconnection in us, that something then comes up in a relationship or in the world or whatever that triggers this, and then but it's really triggering a place where we're disconnected, where we're disembodied, and I use the same the same languaging of embodiment as you just mentioned. So for that reason, these triggers are so important because they're giving us indications of where we need to look. And again, rather than trying to, you know, I talk constantly in my work about people running away from themselves. And the focus is that as we gain increasing confidence that we don't have to keep running away from ourselves. We can, you know, it's I it's just it's it's painful to watch how increasingly hard it seems to be getting for people to be quiet with themselves. They're always on their phones or in some screen or another, or busy or occupied, and you know, just the the the old-fashioned just kind of being sitting quietly with yourself seems to be uh going out of style or something. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

As I was researching your work, Tomas and looking into this, I know that silent retreat is a huge part of your own sort of personal story, and it's been a huge you know, piece for me as well. And I'm just curious how you see both of you the the role of of silence in the healing process Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Very much, Larry, with what you just said before. Um, like that the capacity to become quiet with ourselves or with the world and rest in the world, I think is a tremendously important aspect. It's often used as a bypassing to not really face our worldly topics for sure. And it it can also be, at least in my experience, it can also be a tremendous support and enhancement of the inner work, the process work that we do. And I learned like through my own whatever four-year meditation retreat, I know how much open for me in terms of perception, in terms of the capacity to stay in a very intense group process with a lot of you know, collective trauma and severe things, like very deep pain of humanity, basically. And and I know that my own spiritual practice is definitely a deep essential part to be able to facilitate often groups with hundreds or thousands of people and and and and be very grounded in it. And I and I think actually when we combine the true mystical science with neuroscience or with all kinds of other, like medicine and uh all kinds of other sciences, there are more and more um like relationships forming that show that actually not so different than we thought. Uh or these are two voices: this is the spiritual voice and this is the scientific voice. I think there's so much exchange, and it's not always saying the same thing, obviously, but it doesn't have to, but there's a lot of resonance. And so for me, in my own experience, it it's a tremendous support, like what these four years of meditation taught me is unbelievably important in my entire life path. And so I see this also in our meditation retreats. I mean, how people like what happens as an additional um growth that uh if we don't bypass the process work is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

And that capacity to be quiet in ourselves, as you know uh from having done the so many trainings, uh, Iris, is that I always talk about from this quiet space in us as therapists, we're able to see much more of what's going on for the person we're working with or for the group that we're working with, because we're we're not addressing the problem from the level of where they are. We're hopefully at least addressing it from a deeper place in ourselves, which is really a deeper place in all of us.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, I'll just share briefly my experience in silent retreat is how I started to notice all the barriers to presence in myself that normally there's enough going on where I just am not necessarily aware of it. But if you have no choice but to sort of sit and be with yourself, then all those things become very, very clear and very obvious.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Yeah, beautiful. And I would love to add um that I think actually what we are talking about here is is such an important skill state practice, however we look at it, in this time. Because as we have this conversation, like we the world's getting faster. Hence more data is being processed in a shorter time. So the nervous system needs to deal, needs to update itself all the time to stay in tune with the fast development of our world, tech world, basically. And so having a practice of silence and contemplation and self-contact is so important because without this, we get simply sucked into that speed, into the noise of this world. And so I think therefore, like having these kind of practices is I think a must for many people to really stay grounded in this world and not get sucked into this very fast-paced through the symptoms into this fast-paced development.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

And how do we do that? And you know, I'll just mention you had to take a break to go into a basement to avoid, you know, a potential missile situation in Tel Aviv. You know, people are dealing with various levels of chaos and disruption, crisis. How do we find that stillness? How do we make space for that?

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah, especially I think if if we if we see like there are two ways. Either we constantly resist the fight that these kind of things are happening and we want to go back to the world that we knew before it was like that, or we see, well, something obviously is happening in our world that needs our alignment and our curiosity, and and to see that there isn't actually no way back to the world that we knew, but there is a way forward in relationship to the world that is right now, even if it's challenging. And I think to on the one hand be able to embrace those challenges to a certain degree, and also be in community and have support, or even even like your work, like for some people, this is needed in this time to have a deeper integration work being done to be able to feel more equipped and/or more related to the world that we are in. But I think how to find like I often say majority is the capacity to stay related to challenges and to host difference or conflict or disagreements in a relational space. And I think that this um this is what's needed. And so if we see that it's challenging for us, so how can I take responsibility, own that it's challenging for me, and look for who can help me with uh with resolving this if it's hard for me on my own. And I think too that's why the growing ecosystem of of this trauma work in general, collective trauma work in the world is so important in this time because we are seeing a massive detox or a massive arising through this acceleration.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I I think there's an element too that I talked a lot about during COVID time, and it's I don't know how applicable it is to your to the current situation that you're in right now. You can maybe share with me. But you know, I talked about how all the like because COVID was an invisible threat, you know, as opposed to very visible kinds of dynamics that's that you're experiencing. But what I saw is that some people, in terms of uh trying to respond to this threat that, you know, was held differently by different people in different ways, but that so much of what was unresolved in them got projected onto the threat itself. And there was a real threat. So it was hard for many people to separate out what's the real threat here, actual, you know, and what is what I'm doing with that, what I'm carrying forward unresolved from my own, you know, childhood and you know, past, that uh I'm now projecting. And and we we just did a uh a webinar recently on on death, where I hold a similar perspective perspective about that death also is a projection screen. Different people have different reactions to death and dying and their own, you know, inevitable death, but so much of that is based on what we've already experienced, what I talk about as a futuristic memory. And so I but I don't know how that's applicable in a in a war situation, also, uh not having experienced that directly myself.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah, it's a it's a bit similar, like as you said, it's like there is a real threat on the one hand that is true and uh and that triggers a lot of other things that end up being projected onto it. And and I and I also feel like even in this bomb shelters and these times where we where we also like experience some real community. It's it's very interesting that through this time together, because there are many or multiple people uh in these shelters together that are not necessarily real related at the beginning, but over time it it it's it creates a it creates some form of community relationships and actually a resourcing environment to be with that. And I think that is a very healthy process. And it also shows, at least for me, that the practice that I often speak about or that we you know pass on and practice and deepen, it is important in these moments too, because it it is a different environment. And also when I learned so much, like through the work that I did here and the and the experience that I am in myself, it deepened my understanding of collective trauma tremendously. Like it added so much just to be myself in it and and have that experience over a longer time, um makes a huge difference. Also, how I can speak from that place in a very different way. So I I also see besides that it's challenging and and of course very painful, it also has this um this other side of a tremendous learning in how to apply that actually in globally and uh and speak from a deeper place of experience. Uh so that's that is definitely I don't know, added some some fundamental layer of of that. And I agree also, Larry, with like I also really feel that that the fear of death is has nothing to do with death. Fear of death is all kinds of other layers of life that are on top of it. It's like the the guardian in front of the gate, but it's not the gate. And uh and so so yeah, I resonate with that a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

I I recently read uh American sociologist who went to the Ukraine and taught for a while during this whole war period that they're experiencing. And the impression that I got from his writing, you know, and how he interpreted what he experienced there, was just exactly what you're talking about, Toss. That that they really seem, the Ukrainians have really done an incredible job at coming together in a community and way and in a collective way, supporting each other, living life as usual as they can under the circumstances, which I imagine uh maybe similar to what you're going through there in in Israel. And uh, you know, that how people and how they've managed to do that in the Ukraine uh was was actually quite moving and touching to see like yeah, just what what human beings can actually do, even under terrible circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yeah, that's right. And I and I actually think the agency, to keep the agency alive, that you you live your life as much as you can, also within these circumstances, and you feel you can contribute something and you can you can co-create your situation in a way, and you're not just a victim of the situation. That that I think is a very powerful uh element. And also, we in one of our NGOs from pretty much from the beginning in the Pocket Project, it's our grassroots NGO, we we have a big Ukraine project. Um and uh we so we support therapists and and do supervision and we actually fundraised money to pay therapists to work with refugees in Europe and to work with people in Ukraine. And and it's really touching. It's really touching the community that you know this goes on now for years. So it grew and grew and grew, and now we are training resilient circle resilience facilitators in communities to come together and and create more communal resilience. And and and of course, it's challenging and it's often also tragic what people experience and how much the toll that it has on them, like because it's ongoing, it's you know day and night, and day and night, and and um but also the strength and the beauty and the commitment, and so as along your lines, I think that that is very powerful. What what's the humanity that comes forth in many people in these situations?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

So this is a term I don't know if either of you use this term or endorse this term, but I can't can't help but think about vicarious trauma and just people who may be you know safe in their homes, but they're they're hearing about or they're witnessing on television, you know, these things that are happening. How do you both think about and hold that vicarious trauma piece?

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Well, it's something I've thought a lot about, actually. Um, and secondary or vicarious trauma. And one of the things that I saw, you know, because I was in private practice still in when 9-11 happened, what I watched is that the my the most traumatized people that I was working with at the time, they got transfixed by the images of the buildings going down. And they would, and I, as you know, Iris, I don't give advice, except very, very rarely. But with these clients, I said they need to stop watching and re-watching these images. So they literally go into a kind of a trauma trance and dissociative kind of state. And so I think that vicarious trauma a lot depends a lot on the person and also, but what also the external triggers are. Because there are some things that you witness, no matter who you are, no matter how resilient you are, it's going to have a huge and sometimes devastating impact on you. But there are other things that where the projection process is is taking over, and you know, there's a real fear that so it's not like you're making everything up, but you're over you're responding uh in an over-determined way because of unresolved material that you're you're carrying. And I'd be curious to hear what you think, uh Thomas.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah, I resonate very much just uh with what you said. I think that's that's also how how I think about it, or how it appears to me also in the work with many people, like that that's exactly the interference between their own trauma and their and their own material and the material outside. And also sometimes really that these loops, and especially through media and social media and this acceleration of data, there are so many trauma impulses that sometimes people really need this leadership that you spoke about. Sometimes it's really need somebody to say, hey, let's stop this. And and also, I see this also in the war, that like how easy it is to get so attached to the news because it is some kind of a mechanism that gives some kind of safety to know more what's happening, because it's a situation where you are all the time in uncertainty. You don't really know what's happening on a governmental level, you don't know what's happening for the military, and don't know what's happening really for like you just and then you get bits and pieces of news, and it's so easy to get so attached to it that then you you're all the time dealing with that. And I think for for people that are resilient and and let's say integrated or grounded enough, there is more regulation, so that's okay. But for some people it really becomes like a they get sucked into it. And then if somebody comes and and really intervenes and says, okay, this needs to stop, I think that's actually important and responsible in this case to do that. And and yes, and I think for many of us it's also like an invitation to see, oh, I'm affected by this, do I feel I'm I'm resonating emotionally from an integrated place with pain, or my own pain gets triggered. And then if that's true, so then to work with this is actually a constant invitation for growth. And I'm sure also in your community, when therapists grow and they mature and they get supervision, then all the interferences between their process and the process of the clients that creates disentanglements when you work on this and you lift it higher. So the whole system grows. And um, and I think that's in another way also true for, of course, for for everyone. So I think there's a lot of learning material, but it needs a lot of collective education that needs to happen also, how to work with this. Otherwise, it's just difficult.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

You know, and then Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yeah, it was interesting to hear your comment about the news because I I see that with people, and the challenge is they believe that it's helping them just for the reasons that you mentioned, because they're getting information and yet they don't they're not seeing the big picture, that they're listening to news day, I mean, all day long, when they have a free moment, every moment. And obviously, that's not healthy because then you like you talked about earlier, you just kind of lose yourself in the in this trauma field that you know is both to some degree real and some degree created, you know, by human beings in in, you know, from for a whole variety of different reasons.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, I'm glad we touched on this because I've never heard the framing of this sort of groom doom scrolling behavior as an invitation to to grow, to look more deeply at our triggers. And that feels like a powerful frame for people.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

And also that through the data speed, the impact, so you can see in very short time a lot of trauma. It's different than 100 years ago. And so that that acceleration like can trigger it creates a lot of activation or a lot of numbness, gets triggered, and then it's we are in these states. And I think that's really important, that it needs a navigation system to be in this also high-tech environment in a way grounded and regulated that I think is a real practice because it is not that that's that's around for 500 years and we figured it out already. We are figuring it out as we go along. And parents with their children, and you know, it's like it's a real, this is a very big topic, I think, for our time.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And yeah, I wish we had a lot more time to to delve into it, but I think we just have time now for our final question, which is how are each of you nourishing your own sense of aliveness and connection so that you can continue offering that to others in your work?

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yeah, for me, also in this like going through pretty intense phase here collectively, I I think there are a few things. One is, of course, my family, one is my spiritual practice, um, that's important, one is movement, and it's what I love to run. And so I think movement, nature, running is a way to to be kind of also in a meditative uh state. And um arts and music, and also really, and that's what I also of course to do because my meditation practice, I don't know, is 35 years or more. I don't know, but it's like I whenever I feel something comes up in me, I have a deep curiosity to engage it. And I think that for me that's also like a resourcing work that I'm deeply curious about life in in other people, in groups, in the world, and in myself. And and if there is anything coming up, I I don't have any framing of there is a problem or there is a I don't know, there's something that shouldn't be there. But it's it always, even if it feels uncomfortable, for me it's a chance to to get to know life deeper. And I think this framing for me is very resourcing, besides many other things that maybe it's to take too much time now because we are time uh restrained. But um these are a few nuggets maybe that uh

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Well, I share some things in common with what Thomas said: movement, running, physical activity of all kinds, hiking, working out. These things are really significant in my life. But also, and I don't think we I I talked about it. I I had a meta meditation practice for 14, 15 years. I I'm not actively practicing, but in a way, I'm always practicing. Um and it I find that in working with people is a practice for me. Uh like it's uh it's a way, it's like I'm in some ways accessing more of myself when I'm working with people than I do sometimes just on my own. Uh so that that's you know, and so it's very enriching and fulfilling in that way. Um, of course, you know, friends and family are you know also very significant in in my life. And um yeah, also too, I resonate with the I I I'm just endlessly curious about people and life. You you said life, but uh and I could I could easily say that too. I never framed it quite like that, but but human beings just fascinate me and all of the all of human experience, languages, psychology, and so on, all that stuff I just find endlessly curious. And I'd say the last thing to your question, Iris, is that I think just uh uh not something I did, although it was something that I kind of built on, was that I tend to be very senseate, so that means I'm very here and now focused in general. And um that that provides great comfort for me because I don't perseverate, fixate on the past uh very much, and I don't futurize, I don't catastrophize. So I'm kind of my natural state is to be more in the here and now, and then I've also through various you know spiritual practices and other kinds of work, I've I've developed that and worked on that. But that also is a significant resource in my in my life.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Well, thank you both so much. This was wonderful. I wish we had hours more to keep going. This was great.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Yeah, yeah, me too. Me too. It's such a beautiful space, and thank you for inviting me into your space here.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Great to see you again, and uh yeah, hopefully we'll we'll find another way to continue uh our our contact and connection.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Yeah. So thank you.